Susan Glazebrook and Greg Kayne
Tēnā koutou tatou
How did you come to study law?
My road to the law was certainly not a traditional one. There were no lawyers in my immediate family or, indeed, the wider family. My mother’s family was from Wales. They had a strong belief in education, social justice, and music. But Wales offered only the dangers of the mines and financial insecurity, so my mother’s parents and some of their relatives made their way to Aotearoa New Zealand in search of a better life. And, to a degree, they found it despite the Great Depression and the war. My mother and her two siblings were university educated and all became teachers. My mother would have preferred to become an accountant or an engineer but her father didn’t think those jobs suitable for a woman. My mother did have a period as a science researcher but eventually came back to teaching as that fitted in better with family responsibilities.
My father’s family came from Lancashire and had a small textile factory but the days of small manufacturers were numbered. His parents still saw the future in terms of business, though, and not education. Rather than going to university, my father took a job in sales, leaving him time to pursue his two real loves (apart from us): golf and acting. He met my mother while she was on her OE — he was older than her and a widower. Eventually, our family made its way to Aotearoa New Zealand. My younger sister and I spent our childhood in Benneydale and Piopio in Te Rohe Pōtae (the King Country). My high school years were spent in Tauranga. I explain all of this as background influences the choices in life.
I started my university studies at Waikato when I was just 16, having left school at the end of the sixth form. I was there for two years and studied French, mathematics, and history (incidentally with Judge Allison Sinclair). But those subjects seemed to lead inexorably to teaching and I was determined not to follow my mother down that route. I consulted a careers advisory service and received the helpful advice that I could do anything I wanted, except perhaps become a car mechanic. The choice narrowed to medicine or law. Medicine would have involved catching up on sciences, so law it was.
Starting law meant a move to Auckland University as Waikato didn’t then have a law school. I couldn’t quite give up history and I went on to do an MA as well as an LLB (Hons), working for part of that time as a junior lecturer in history. When I did finally finish my law degree, jobs were scarce and even more so for those, like me, with no contacts in the legal profession.
This meant that, when I was offered a scholarship to study abroad, I jumped at the chance. I went to Oxford to study a DPhil. I decided to combine French, history, law, and even some mathematics (statistics) by studying the workings of the new criminal justice system in Rouen during the French Revolution.
What was Oxford like?
I remember the intellectual stimulation, the weight of history in the surroundings, cream teas, the covered market, and punting. I also remember the snobbery, the class distinctions, and the sense of being outside and somehow above reality. I spent only one year actually in Oxford. It was a long time ago and the experiences of a post-graduate student are very different from those of an undergraduate. So my impressions have to be seen in that context.
Given the topic of my DPhil thesis, the rest of my time was spent in France. My first few months in Rouen were a challenge. University French does not prepare you for everyday living, but total immersion and the survival instinct means you cope. And eventually thrive, assisted of course by French food and wine and good friends. I was lucky enough while in France not just to study but also to work part-time for an organisation that looked after political refugees (mostly from Africa). I worked as an interpreter and also assisted the refugee claimants in navigating the French bureaucracy. Not for the faint-hearted!
Why did you return to New Zealand and what did you do?
I came back to Aotearoa New Zealand because I had come to the point where I had to decide where to make my permanent home. Staying in France would have meant living as a foreigner and the same was true of England, despite having been born there. Aotearoa New Zealand was the place of my childhood and where my family was (as well as being a very nice place to live). I also had a profession to come home to and one which was much more welcoming than it had been when I left.
I ended up accepting a position as a law clerk with Simpson Grierson and specialising in tax law. This might seem rather at odds with my career up to that point but I had become interested in commerce while in France (and even ended up later doing a diploma in finance at Auckland University). I was lucky, too, as tax law had undergone some quite fundamental changes and so the playing field was levelled a bit for newcomers like me.
While at Simpson Grierson I didn’t confine myself to the law. I was a member of various commercial boards and government advisory committees and also in 1998 served as the president of the Inter-Pacific Bar Association — an organisation of business lawyers in the Asia-Pacific region.
How was it at first being appointed to the bench?
Given I had worked in the commercial field, it was rather a surprise to be approached to join the High Court bench in May 2000. I wasn’t the first commercial lawyer to be appointed; preceding me were Peter Blanchard and Judith Potter, but this didn’t make the transition easy. I wasn’t a total novice — I had done some general court work when I first started with Simpson Grierson, and also had been counsel in a number of tax cases. But none of that limited experience was enough to prepare me for my first criminal trial. Luckily, I had an extremely supportive common room to help me through. As well as Peter and Judith, I mention in particular Justices Hugh Williams, Peter Salmon, and Bob Fisher.
How do you compare your experience in those three courts?
After two years on the High Court, I was appointed to the Court of Appeal in May 2002 and then to the Supreme Court in August 2012. I have enjoyed my time in all three courts.
In the Supreme Court, all the appeals we hear involve issues of public importance and are intellectually demanding. I appreciate having the time to examine all the issues in-depth and to discuss the legal and practical implications with the other members of the court, all of whom bring their own experience and talents to bear.
The Court of Appeal, like all intermediate appellate courts, is, by contrast, a very busy court. Many of the appeals involve pure error correction but of course, others involve issues of high legal significance. The sheer variety of cases and the number of other judges one works with make for a very stimulating environment.
The High Court was in some ways the best court to work in, with a good mixture of trial and appellate work. I also got to see the real human stories unfold in the courtroom and to see the law working in practice.
I was fortunate, while a judge, to have been a member of the Advisory Council of Jurists for the Asia-Pacific Forum of Human Rights Institutions. This role allowed me to work with some very talented jurists from around the region on human rights issues of importance to the region, such as trafficking, torture, and the right to education.
I also served for a number of years as the chair of the Institute of Judicial Studies. The institute was one of the first judicial education bodies that worked on the principles of adult education and involved all benches being educated together.
My work in judicial education gave me a real appreciation for the work of the other courts and in particular the District Court. The District Court has the most contact with the public and therefore is the face of justice in New Zealand. It’s able, because of this, to be innovative in its approach. I mention in particular the Matariki and Rangitahi courts, Te Kooti o Timatanga Hou (the New Beginnings Court) and its Wellington counterpart, Te Whare Whakapiki Wairua (the Alcohol and Other Drug Treatment Court), and, of course, the work being done in the mainstream courts to make justice more just and accessible.
Impressions on service as a judge?
It has been a privilege to serve as a judge. It’s all too easy to get bogged down in the daily grind of hearings and judgements and forget the very important work we do as judges in upholding the rule of law. We must take care, however, never to become complacent. We must strive always to do what is right and what is just and to improve access to, and the experience of, the justice system. The past is important for the law but we must be careful not to stultify the progress of the law and procedure. And, of course, the past (and particularly the colonial past) has left a legacy of injustice and inequality for many in our society. As leaders in the justice sector, we must recognise and address that legacy.
What broad interests do you and your family enjoy?
We enjoy the beach, bush walks, cooking, good wine, reading, the theatre (especially the Circa trips organised by the marvellous Judge Carolyn Henwood), ballet (watch not do), and wildlife and travel photography (proud members of the Hutt Camera Club).
We have travelled extensively, both in New Zealand and offshore. We believe in active travel; Europe with two backpacks, two small boys, and a double pushchair; falconry in a field in Kent; sleeping out on the Great Wall in China; photographing brown bears and cubs near Lake Clark, Alaska; kayaking in the dark past the alligators and through the reeds in the Bayou near New Orleans (the sunset was worth it); climbing down beside a 100-metre waterfall in the Grand Canyon (Havasupai) backwards through rock tunnels and on slippery rope ladders to get to yet another waterfall 10 miles away (and then back again); being panda keepers for a day, mostly spent cleaning up panda poo (luckily mostly half-digested plant matter); sleeping in a pup tent in the Serengeti with a hyena outside looking for food scraps; hiking in Sapa with Hmong and Red Dao guides; eating hairy tofu near the Yellow Mountains in China and guinea pig in Peru; flying up to Kaktovik at the top of Alaska to see polar bears; looking for frogs and the elusive resplendent quetzel in Costa Rica; searching for pink dolphins on the Amazon River (and coming across an illegal logging operation); and visiting the cave drawings of the lost Taíno people in the Dominican Republic.
Given COVID-19, we will be grounded in New Zealand for the foreseeable future. There are certainly worse fates (as shocking images around the world have shown), and there are unusual travel experiences here too; hand-feeding wild stingrays in Te Tairāwhiti / the East Coast and having them slide up your legs to take the food in their lovely soft mouths; Barry Brickell’s Driving Creek Railway in Te Tara-o-te-Ika a Māui / Coromandel; the Lost Gypsy Gallery in the Catlins or Moriori rakau momori (tree carvings) on Rēkohu / Wharekauri / Chatham Islands. We draw the line at bungy jumping.
You are the president-elect of the International Association of Women Judges (IAWJ) and now a member of JANZ. Do you see the work of judges associations as important?
I am a great believer in the importance of international organisations generally. There are invaluable lessons to be gained from sharing experiences across jurisdictions, analysing both similarities and differences, and bringing the lessons home.
Associations of judges bring a unique perspective because of the role of the law and of judges in ensuring stability in society and the protection of the vulnerable. This is even more important in times of crisis, where we can learn from others but also support those where the rule of law might be more fragile.
The IAWJ has a special focus not only on working towards diversity on the bench but also in promoting gender equality more generally and access to justice for all. While its members are mostly women judges (over 6000 members in more than 100 countries), it welcomes members of all genders. The IAWJ has a number of areas of particular focus. They include domestic violence, human trafficking, sextortion, and generally support for our members to be leaders in their countries.
As many of you will know, one of the casualties of COVID-19 was the IAWJ’s biennial conference that was to have been held this May in Auckland. We have rescheduled to early May next year (with a backup date of September) and hope, COVID-19 willing, to see you all there.
To finish
Kia kaha, kia māia, kia manawanui
Tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou, tēnā koutou katoa.